Simplification question: 夠 vs 够

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vorpal
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Registered: 2008-09-16
Posts: 38

Does anyone know why such a seemingly bizarre "simplification" was made? Is there some kind of logical reason?

kitakitsune
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From: Honolulu
Registered: 2008-10-19
Posts: 26

This character was not simplified.

Both characters were in common use at the time the PRC government made the simplifications.  够 just won out in a battle of which character would get the government seal of approval.

Reply #3 - 2011 March 06, 3:37 pm
vorpal
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Registered: 2008-09-16
Posts: 38

Then why does every resource I see list 夠 explicitly as the traditional character, and 够 as the simplified one? That doesn't seem to make sense.

Reply #4 - 2011 March 06, 3:45 pm
JimmySeal
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From: Kyoto
Registered: 2006-03-28
Posts: 62

Because the standardized traditional set uses 夠, and the standardized simplified set uses 够.  I think you need to read kitakitsune's comment again.

Reply #5 - 2011 March 06, 3:50 pm
kitakitsune
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From: Honolulu
Registered: 2008-10-19
Posts: 26

Because the "simplified" version of this character was made PRC standard when the new character lists were published. Even though nothing was actually simplified. There was a committee in China tasked with simplifying and standardizing written Chinese, when they came across this character they noticed there were two common versions of the hanzi being used so they had to pick which one will be in the official government approved lists. 够 won out.

Think of the movie "Highlander". There can be only one.

Last edited by kitakitsune (2011 March 06, 3:55 pm)

Reply #6 - 2011 March 06, 7:37 pm
zer0range
Member
From: US
Registered: 2009-03-18
Posts: 61

A common misconception people seem to have is that there is a set of "Traditional" and a set of "Simplified" characters, and that these simplifications came about simply from the Communist party taking "Traditional" characters and simplifying them in one fell swoop.

In fact, many of these "Simplified" characters have been in existence for a really long time as short hand or regional variations, and it was simply a matter of picking and choosing.

nadiatims
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From: hiroshima
Registered: 2008-01-10
Posts: 38

Considering the pronunciation of that character, it's a darn stupid simplifacation...

JimmySeal
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From: Kyoto
Registered: 2006-03-28
Posts: 62

nadiatims wrote:

Considering the pronunciation of that character, it's a darn stupid simplifacation...

Have you been reading the comments in the thread so far?  It's not a simplification.  And if it were, pray tell, what makes it stupid?

nadiatims
Member
From: hiroshima
Registered: 2008-01-10
Posts: 38

Simplifacation or not, it was a bad choice because it's non-standard to have the phonetic element on the left. The character is pronounced 'gou' so it makes more sense to have 句 on the right.

Reply #10 - 2011 March 06, 11:57 pm
JimmySeal
Member
From: Kyoto
Registered: 2006-03-28
Posts: 62

nadiatims wrote:

non-standard

It seems by "non-standard", you mean "less common."
It's also less common to have 多 on the left (夠 is the only character on zhongwen.com that has it there).

So one way or another, they were going to have to defy a common trend, and it looks like they went with keeping the location of 多 consistent.

Reply #11 - 2011 March 07, 12:27 am
nadiatims
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From: hiroshima
Registered: 2008-01-10
Posts: 38

多 only appears on the left when it's a phonetic radical though, which it isn't in this case. In this case 句 is phonetic and 多 is semantic, and the standard is to have the semantic radical on the left and the phonetic on the right.

Reply #12 - 2011 March 07, 1:19 am
JimmySeal
Member
From: Kyoto
Registered: 2006-03-28
Posts: 62

nadiatims wrote:

多 only appears on the left when it's a phonetic radical though, which it isn't in this case.

Huh?  Did you mean to say "right" here?  Even if you did, that's not true.

standard

You keep saying "standard" when there is no standard.  Only a more common way of arranging the two sides.  There are plenty of characters with the phonetic component on the left.

Reply #13 - 2011 March 07, 1:37 am
nadiatims
Member
From: hiroshima
Registered: 2008-01-10
Posts: 38

Yeah I meant right.

Go type 'gou' and 'duo' into your ime or take a look on zhongwen.com. This is the only character using 句 phonetically and placing it on the left. So it is odd that became the standard simplified form.

anyways...keep your pants on.

Reply #14 - 2011 March 07, 2:50 am
kitakitsune
Member
From: Honolulu
Registered: 2008-10-19
Posts: 26

nadiatims wrote:

Yeah I meant right.

Go type 'gou' and 'duo' into your ime or take a look on zhongwen.com. This is the only character using 句 phonetically and placing it on the left. So it is odd that became the standard simplified form.

anyways...keep your pants on.

What about 劬 and 鸲?

Reply #15 - 2011 March 07, 3:22 am
nadiatims
Member
From: hiroshima
Registered: 2008-01-10
Posts: 38

point taken, though those are both pronounced qu and not gou. Also both of those have semantic radicals that traditionally go on the right, which isn't the case with 够.

Last edited by nadiatims (2011 March 07, 3:26 am)

Reply #16 - 2011 March 07, 3:42 am
JimmySeal
Member
From: Kyoto
Registered: 2006-03-28
Posts: 62

nadiatims wrote:

point taken, though those are both pronounced qu and not gou.

Whether the sound changed or not, 句 is the phonetic component and there's no room for "though"s here.

which isn't the case with 够.

Do you know that for a fact?  As I already pointed out 6 posts back, every left-right character containing 多 that I've been able to locate (except for 夠) has it on the right.

Last edited by JimmySeal (2011 March 07, 3:42 am)

Reply #17 - 2011 March 07, 6:15 am
nadiatims
Member
From: hiroshima
Registered: 2008-01-10
Posts: 38

Check on zhongwen. They're all phonetic, except 夥. So there's one occurrence of a semantic 多 on the right hand side and one with it on the left (夠). It seems obvious to me that for the sake of consistency, 夠 is a better choice. They should have just changed 夥 to match it.

Reply #18 - 2011 March 07, 6:29 am
kitakitsune
Member
From: Honolulu
Registered: 2008-10-19
Posts: 26

I suspect that 够 was a much more common character at the time and that is why it made the list instead of 夠.

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